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So funny French Frog ...though, I gave the first link and the other was Giovanni, I think...but whatever, it�s not important...
I still don�t agree with teaching phonetics though... I have heard ALL the arguments before and Mietz... even us natives need dictionaries sometimes, if we see a word we�ve never seen before. But for 90% of our students, most need a functional English, so that they can speak and be understood...
ALSO, all of you who defend the use of phonetics, please remember that some words can be pronounced 2 to 3 different ways. And it is wrong, or detrimental, to tell a student only one way is correct! Like I�ve heard some teachers do in the past... this can cause students to feel stupid or even cause them to not want to speak... (I�ve had this happen, teachers correcting my students... not good...at all... )
Examples of words with various pronunciations: garage, banal, laboratory, advertisement, often, whiten...
The thing is the whole structure and approach is completely different as a native speaker of the different phonetic sounds. In London for example I taught ages 5-8 (years 1,2,3) over 8 years and many of the pupils in various classes were from other countries who had just arrived. Every day in the english lesson there is a phonic component built into the lesson, these children with little to no english picked up the phonetic sounds to be able to write and speak well. (I could give you examples of ESL children who by the end of the year far outshone their english born counterparts.....) The approach looks at letters and blends, consonant clusters etc. It is reinforced in spelling, reading strategies, in everything. I have yet to be convinced as a native speaker to use the symbols in my teaching. Maybe that is because I have no need in the language settings I have been in. Maybe for adult learners? I can see in countries where the language and the sounds or written script is completely different that of course it could be very successful. For me at this point, I have really tried the last few weeks to get into it... but it just leaves me cold.
That�s what makes teaching and learning interesting as we all teach and learn in different ways :-)
I believe that teaching/learning phonetics and all what goes with is necessary, but for whom, in what way and when?
I can�t conceive a student specialized in languages not having a considerable deal of his/her studies dedicated to this field.
But do you think teaching phonetic symbols in secondary school nearly the same way it should be at Uni. is good for the kids?
You can say we have to teach them these so that they can use a dictionary correctly to know about a word�s pronunciation. OK, we bet they achieve learning these symbols perfectly (which I doubt of), so which dictionary are they going to rely on?
Yes, we can always teach them some specific sounds (especially those they don�t have in their mother tongue or those similar) from time to time but still we can to do so use different methods such as using their mother tongue transcription to visualize that specific sound.
As Algerian speaking "Arabic" as a first language, we can use Arabic transcription to tell PP about the different pronunciations of, for instance, the "th" since both exist in Arabic. "" as in "think" and "" as in "that". There are many other examples.
Do you know in Arabic we have all the English sounds and more? So pronunciation isn�t a problem as long as we aren�t too conformists and official textbooks slaves.
So, why bother the kids with these bizarre symbols since we can teach them pronunciation in better and more funny ways.
Ps: I challenge any one to say he/she can transcribe any word he/she comes across without dictionary.
I have a rule. I never teach my PPs something I am not sure of. I can�t imagine myself stuck in my place not knowing how to answer a kid�s question.
I agree with zora, learning these symbols as a student isn�t fun, and as a native pretty pointless (unless you�re a teacher). �
The best way to teach a word is but example. �Here we have the problem that when we repeat a word 20 or so times we are using ever so slightly different sounds every time. �That�s why I use "Text to voice" (Sometimes I have to rewrite a word because it�s an exception), but it allows the student to hear exactly the same sound as many times as they want. �Sorry I will go one about it but it�s so good. - "start" - "control panel" - "Text to voice".
May I suggest something better than microsoft Sam? I see you are fanatic of text to voice.
I mean "TextAloudMp3" software. It can use all the voices already installed on your machine. However, I don�t like these because they are too synthetic. You can always install "Cepstral voices" or "NeoSpeech" ones they are incredibly real. Yet, voluminous requiring a powerful PC for better results ( A PC with a P4 cpu and at least 1gb ram). These aren�t free. In addition, with this software you have other parameters you can play with such as "pitch level", "speed" and "volume".
You can save you words and/or text in WAV or MP3 format which you can save and play repeatedly to your SS without any change/loss in pronunciation as you said.
I can send you a sample text I made quickly a couple of years ago, if I have your e-mail address.
So interesting about the Arabic being similar in sounds to English, I didn�t know that. Though, it would make sense since there are a lot of Arabic speakers that speak English very well.
I hear what is being said but don�t fully understand the problem.
Of cause native speakers don�t need to learn the phonetic symbols and therefore our dictionaries don�t use them. Non native speakers should, I believe, use the �International Phonetic Alphabet� that why it�s called the �International�. As non native speakers they wouldn�t know how to pronounce accented (respelled) words (as used in English dictionaries) anyway. As an example, a Chinese / English dictionary does use phonetic symbols. I have spoken to my partner (who is Chinese) about this previously and she assured me that as a Chinese SS of English it is imperative that they learn the symbols. Chinese children are taught the �English� alphabet to learn Chinese through the Chinese pinyin system. However their pronunciation of many of the letters are completely different. eg. b= +- p, c = ts i = e as in ergonomics (so six = sex) and there are no combos, as we know them anyway, so �third� would be pronounced t-h-i-r-d = turd (roughly). I�m sure that this pronunciation problem is not unique to China. Chinese English teachers teach their ss the phonetic symbols.
If on the other hand, a person is only learning English as a means to get by, then maybe you are right Zora. And as far as different pronunciations of the same word is concerned, I�d say that the majority ESL learners know that there is British English and Americanised English.
That�s interesting Dennis because although I don�t usually teach the phonetic alphabet to my adult students, on many occasions my Chinese students will ask me to write something in the IPA. I, also, had a complete beginner Chinese student once and she wrote down everything using the IPA - I was completely amazed by this but she picked the language up really quickly this way. None of my other students usually do this - they usually do as Zora says and write things down as they would spell them out in their own language. Anyway, I don�t mind what method my students use as long as it works for them and if they want something in IPA, I am happy to oblige.
(Sorry guys, this is just something I needed to get off my chest... I had a student today with this recurring "problem"... for me that is... I hate phonetics for this reason... )
Twelve year olds should NOT have to learn phonetic symbols. I say this because I have about eight students that are frustrated (and worried) because it counts for marks at school. I think it is very unnecessary that students of that age need to know what they are even. The teacher should be repeating the words to them, reviewing daily - not making them to memorize strange symbols...
Languages can be learned better without them even, I learned Spanish (fluently) -, a little Portuguese and French (just enough to get by... if I travel. ) and I can assure you that I NEVER saw a phonetic symbol ever, and I must say thank you to my lovely French teachers in Canada, treating us like parrots - for the little I know is quite "coherent" AND I can basically make out how things are pronounced properly.
My opinion is this - A language can be taught through proper repetition and use of the word and not using symbols unless this is necessary.
And "to the learners should know"... well, I had students come back to me dejected and sort of put out because I had told them we say "You�re welcome" and their teachers told them no, they are wrong... you should say "It�s nothing" (and we have had this TONS of times. Once, I even had an adult tell me all through his English learning years, he was told it was so until he went to England and saw otherwise... ) or that you say, "garage" one way and only that way...
Hmm, sometimes I have similar problems when in the classroom here in Japan. I�m Australian, so my native accent and English are neither American nor British standard. Some of the expressions I would use natively are different to the examples given in the texts. This causes some interesting discussions with the Japanese English teachers, not just complications for the students!
One of the most useful aspects of IPA (which I use in preference to APA) is that it directly links to articulation. While Wolfy is correct about the variation in sound produced by every speaker of every language (no word is pronounced identically by the same speaker, in thoery at least...) this variation is also natural! Unless the speaker/teacher uses a very wide range of pronunciations, the students will follow the general sound produced by the particular articulation used. Many of the Japanese students I met in Australia used hand mirrors when practicing pronunciation so they could see their tongue & lip positions. This approach works very well with phonetic symbol knowledge because they are designed to reflect articulation method more than a concrete, fixed, unvarying sound. Linguists are aware that variation in sounds will occur - hence the +/- variations that can be attributed. Also, most literature I�ve read about these symbols state they are abstract & will not necessarily perfectly represent the sounds in any given language - again, that�s why there are so many different symbols (sometimes language specific) in use.
With regqard to learning the symbols themselves... I know some students find them useful. They are widely used in Japanese English textbooks. I am sure most of the junior high school kids I teach don�t know them - they�re not assessed on them at this level - but some of the advanced students do. As a teacher I feel it helps me to teach pronunciation of English (with all its wonderful variation and accents) more effectively because I have a greater knowledge of the physical �how to�s� of sound production. So, in most cases, I wouldn�t teach the IPA symbols to every student (unless it�s an assessible component of their curriculum), they are certainly a useful extension for teachers to be familiar with..
Sorry about the rambling... I�m busy doing several things at once....
...though, I gave the first link and the other was Giovanni, I think...but whatever, it�s not important... 
(and we have had this TONS of times. Once, I even had an adult tell me all through his English learning years, he was told it was so until he went to England and saw otherwise... ) or that you say, "garage" one way and only that way... 
