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Ask for help > can the relative pronouns "where" and "when" be omitted?
can the relative pronouns "where" and "when" be omitted?
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chenchen_castrourdiales
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can the relative pronouns "where" and "when" be omitted?
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Hi everybody,
I �ve always told my students when covering relative clauses that just the relative pronouns "who", "that" and "which" can be omitted in informal speech when they are the object of a defining relative clause. But today when I gave one my students his exam corrected he told me that once read in a book that "where" and "when" can also be omitted, that �s the reason why he wrote in the exam that in the following sentences "where" and "when" can be omitted. The given sentences are:
1) Joe will never forget the day when he first got his driving license.
2) I can �t remember the name of the garage where we had the car repaired last month.
While in sentence #1 it is true that if I omit the relative pronoun it sound okay, that �s not what if always been taught.
I �ve also checked "english practice usage" by oxford and in the advance points it is said that they can be omitted but it is not very clear.
Could you please tell me your opinion? Thanks a million! |
16 Jun 2010
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sulekra
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It can be omitted, because it �s clear from the context. I find ellipsis the most difficult thing to teach because I myself have no idea why I remove the words I do, and mostly I don �t even realise I �m doing it and students often ask me whether or not a word is missing:S
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16 Jun 2010
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kodora
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When and where can never be omitted because they are relative adverbs.
Only who, which and that can be omitted when 1) they are not after a comma or a preposition
2)they refer to the object of the verb.
eg.The man who gave you the money is my brother(cannot be omitted)
The man to whom you gave the money is my brother(cannot be omitted)
The man (whom/that) you gave the money to is my brother(can be omitted)
Joe will never forget the day on which he got his driving licence(cannot be omitted)
Joe will never forget the day (which/that) he got his driving licence on(can be omitted)
For more information check the following:
http://www.ego4u.com/en/cram-up/grammar/relative-clauses
I hope this helps
Dora
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16 Jun 2010
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sulekra
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As kodora showed we can �t omit the relative pronoun if it is followed by a verb.
"the man who gave you the money is my brother"
"the man gave you the money is my brother" - this no longer makes sense.
But if there is a new subject following the relative pronoun, it �s not a problem to delete, it �s just simply ellipsis and how most native speakers speak.
"the man who we gave the money to is homeless"
"the man we gave the money to is homeless"
Both are exactly the same, acting similar to a noun clause.
The same applies for your examples, as there are subjects following the relative pronouns, so as I said before, the context is clear from the situation and it �s obvious we have omitted it.
In kodora �s examples -
Joe will never forget the day on which he
got his driving licence(cannot be omitted)
Joe will never forget
the day (which/that) he got his driving licence on(can be omitted)
- on which and when are the same, and both can be omitted without a problem.
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16 Jun 2010
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yanogator
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To add some to this conversation:
You can also say, "Jay will never forget the day he got his driving license". (without "on")
In your original #2, you can �t just drop "where", but you can substituti "at" in two different ways:
I can �t remember the name of the garage at which we had the car repaired last month. (formal)
I can �t remember the name of the garage we had the car repaired at last month. (informal)
Bruce |
16 Jun 2010
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coyote.chus
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I think you can omit it in both examples, because they can be replaced by preposition+which.
1) Joe will never forget the day when he first got his driving license.
Joe will never forget the day on which he first got his driving license.
Joe will never forget the day he first got his driving license.
2) I can �t remember the name of the garage where we had the car repaired last month. I can �t remember the name of the garage at which we had the car repaired.
I can �t remember the name of the garage we had the car repaired.
In these cases the relative is not the SUBJECT of the sentence, but the OBJECT OF A PREPOSITION and in this case, youc an omit it.
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16 Jun 2010
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yanogator
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Sorry to disagree with you chus, but it �s not correct to say "I can �t remember the name of the garage we had the car repaired." That �s how I see it, at least.
Bruce |
16 Jun 2010
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coyote.chus
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Yes, you are right. We should say I can �t remember the name of the garage we had the car repaired at". Sorry.
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16 Jun 2010
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pilarmham
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As far as I know, you can omit "when" but not "where". "Who", "Which" and "that" can be omitted if they function as objects. |
17 Jun 2010
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dturner
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Very healthy discussion. In normal conversation, I would naturally omit the when. I prefer the flow of the language with it not there. Although, I understand it works, technically. In my humble opinion, you need the where. Otherwise one stops and has to reread the sentence. It simply sounds awkward like something is missing. dt
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17 Jun 2010
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MarianaC
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I think the big confusion with "where" may also come from the fact the sometimes we use the noun for a place actually as an object. For example
"This is the country where I grew up" (place)
"This is the country (which) I �d like to visit" (just a thing)
"The bank where you invest your money has gone bankrupt" (place)
"The bank which is next to the bakery was robbed last night" (object, just referring to the building, not the place) (here it �s not omitted because it �s the subject of the clause!)
I think it has to do with the meaning of the words we are using in the sentence. I mean, a "place" can be treated as a place or as an object. When it �s treated as a place, then we should keep the pronoun, but as an object (which), it can be omitted.
But then again,
"The name of a place (where) you always feel relaxed."
And the same with when:
"The month (when) you usually go on holiday."
And so we start again, back to the beginning of this forum... I �m going crazy here!!! :S
Good thinking, though. |
17 Jun 2010
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