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Pedro14
Spain

question
 
Iīm marking some exams my students sat last week and I wonder if the key I was given is correct or not. * Michael hasnīt got his phone and this morning he was at the bank. Itīs probable itīs there. FORGOTTEN Michael ___________ at the bank this morning. Most students have written: might / may / could have forgotten his phone; however, according to the key, they should have written should have forgotten his phone, instead. To my mind, their answer is perfect but I wonder if Iīm wrong. Would anyone shed some light on this? Thanks in advance.

21 Mar 2019      



FrauSue
France

I would accept any of the following, but NOT īshould have forgottenī:
could have forgotten
might have forgotten
may have forgotten
must have forgotten
forgot
seems to have forgotten 

21 Mar 2019     



Aisha77
Spain

There is a mistakes in that sentence, Pedro:
 Michael hasnīt got his phone and this morning he was at the bank. Itīs probable itīs there. FORGOTTEN Michael ___________ (it  /the mobile/ the phone) at the bank this morning.
 
"Itīs probable itīs there" may be grammatically correct but it sounds really weird to my ears, Iīd use "itīs probably there"

About "should have forgotten" Iīve found web sites were they use it, so it may be possible (but Iīm not sure at all), however, your studentsī answers are correct too. Sometimes, even though we have a key, there are many other possibilities too. I would never use "should have forgotten", instead "must have forgotten" is more accurate. I will be waiting for comments, as Frau says I believe it is not acceptable...
Aisha ;) 

21 Mar 2019     



cunliffe
United Kingdom

I donīt really get this sentence at all! Logically, it should be īhe must have left it at the bank.ī
But, you are right that īshould have forgottenī is not right. I agree with Aisha that anything suggested by Frau Sue - or your students - is good.

21 Mar 2019     



Pedro14
Spain

Hi everybody, This afternoon I have had a hotly debate with some workmates of mine about this exam question. They claimed that "should have forgotten" is the only correct answer since the context says "it is probable" and to express probability "should" is the only modal that can be used. "may / might/ could" are used to express possibility instead. To tell you the truth, I find it difficult to tell the difference between possibility and possibility. To my mind, when something happens usually, such as in the following sentence, "should" would come out naturally to me: Itīs 4 oīclock so Jane should have arrived school by now. In this statement, I wouldnīt use "might / may/ could". My colleagues told me that if I want to use may / might / could then instead of "itīs probable itīs there." I should write "Itīs possible itīs there." Could anyone enlighten me? Thanks in advanced to those who have already taken time to reply to my question.

21 Mar 2019     



Aisha77
Spain

Hi dude:
I have found these webpages and they are really clear about that expression. Have a look to ALL both pages, cause you will see "should" is not the modal to be used in such a sentence. 
 
 
You could show them our debate and the pages.
I saw a website using that expression, but donīt remember the context and however it was a german site to teach English, so I would trust more the native English-speakers as Lynee and Frau Sue... Thatīs my opinion. 
Cheers
Aisha ;) 
EDIT:
I post it here though cause I think itīs really interesting to everybody!

Past Modal Verbs of Probability

You can construct past modal verbs by adding “have” and a past participle to the modal verb.

  • George must have gotten on the plane.
  • Katie might have been late to the movie.
  • Flying could have been too expensive.
  • Drew can’t have gone to the party.

It is important not to confuse modal verbs like “should” and “could” with their other modal verb roles. When used as a modal verb of probability, “should” means that you assume something happened if everything is as you expect it to be.

  • PRESENT: The bus should be leaving.
  • PAST: The bus should have left.
My conclusion: SHOULD + HAVE + past participle is used for obligations that are supposed to have been fulfilled or to make assumptions that are probable to have happened when and ONLY WHEN we believe they were to be happened that way as we have previous references of similar situations happening the same way or because the situation has gone the way we expected it to, without necessarily entailing it is the only way to express it (as the use of other modals are evenly accurate)

21 Mar 2019     



cunliffe
United Kingdom

In fact, Michael should have remembered his phone! ;))) 

The īshould haveī here implies obligation, advice, nothing to do with probability/possibility. However, here, you are assuming he has left (forgotten, if you insist;-)) his phone at the bank, so those other renditions are all acceptable, but not īhe should haveī. 

In the other example you give... īshe should have arrived by nowī  - that is correct. You are expecting her, she should have done that, but she hasnīt. 


22 Mar 2019     



Aisha77
Spain


To my understanding what you wrote here is the same as what I wrote, or isnīt it??
Aisha ;)
Best weekend to all!! (Specially for you Lynne and many thanks for helping us so much!)
EDIT: I will correct the statement adding something... Lynne. please, could you tell me if after I edit the paragraph it makes complete sense and if it is finally a well done rule? Thanks in advance.

22 Mar 2019     



cunliffe
United Kingdom

Hey Aisha, quite often on here, people chip in with a bit of extra info, or just to reinforce what others have said. I am sure your answer was good - and very thorough, so thanks to you!
Lynne 

23 Mar 2019     



FrauSue
France

Hi Pedro,
 
I agree with Lynne as usual!
The probability here has nothing to do with prediction or expectations, which is when īshouldī would be acceptable. (Itīs 10 oī clock so the post should have already been delivered) nor with obligation (You should have helped the person who fell over in the road). 
You are trying to draw a conclusion from the information given, which means that īmustī is acceptable (for certainty) or could/may/might (for possibility).
 

23 Mar 2019