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ESL forum >
Grammar and Linguistics > Problem 2: Should
Problem 2: Should
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goodnesses
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I can see not only Marta�s brain that is becoming thick.
why are you all posting the same message twice ?????
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25 Sep 2008
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Vickiii
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goodnesses I really do like your challenges. My class finished to late for me to offer an opinion before everyone had resolved the quandry. Please keep them coming. Although I can give you an answer based on what is natural to say (for me). I have to go away and look up the names of rules that you all use. It is excellent for my professional development!
Should you ever stop posting these questions, I would become bereft. (is ok??)
ps - "intuition and improvisation are not good in teaching and should be avoided as far as possible"
I totally disagree with this statement and will be posting a string on it tomorrow night when I am not so exhausted! |
25 Sep 2008
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Zora
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Hey goodnesses - sorry, I took so long to answer, I would have done it sooner if I had known but I just logged in this morning and voil� - there was your query! 
The rule to the conditional tenses is the following:
1� Conditional:
If + present tense (may be ANY present tense - continuous, simple or even *gasp* present perfect and sometimes even modals.. ) + will (or modals verbs like should, can, may/might, must, could) ....
2� Conditional:
If + past tense (continuous or simple BUT not Past/ Present Perfect) + would (or modals verbs like should, may/might, must, could) ....
Using modals will just modify the
meaning in a sentence in the above conditionals - only the third conditional is more "rigid" in its form, the conditional forms are extremely "flexible".
Now examples:
If she writes a letter to complain, it will be address to Mr. Johnson.
If she is writing a letter to Tom, she will tell him about the accident.
If she has written a letter, it will be for Tom.
Now you could also say:
If she writes a letter to complain, it SHOULD be address to Mr. Johnson. (meaning the letter has to be addressed to Mr. Johnson or the complaint won�t be recieved.)
If she is writing a letter to Tom, she might tell him about the accident. (meaning that, perhaps, but not for certain will she tell him about the accident.)
If she has written a letter, it could be for Tom. (we don�t know who the letter is for but we are guessing it is for Tom.)
The above examples are for the first Conditional but it�s the same for the second.
If he graduated from University, he may/should/could/would/must find a job in his field. (Each modal gives the sentence a different "twist" and the meanings are slightly different depending on which one you use.)
If he graduated from University, he may find a job in his field. - means that there is only a possibilty he will find a job in that field but it�s not certain.
If he graduated from University, he should find a job in his field. - means that it�s most likely that he will find a job.
If he graduated from University, he could find a job in his field. - means that if he wanted to he could probably find a job in his specialty.
If he graduated from University, he must find a job in his field. - this one means that it is imperative that he hAS to find a job doing whatever he studied.
Hope this helps and doesn�t help to confuse the issue more... though I�m "quite" sure goodnesses will have some question for me that will make me go... "hmmm... " LOL
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25 Sep 2008
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goodnesses
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Hi, again Zora.
First I "quite" agree with you about the formation of the conditionals and how flexible they could be. In addition to the fact that every modal alters the meaning of the same sentence of the same type at some extent.
For your examples in the 1st conditional I can�t give a better explanation of their meaning than yours.
However I am a little sceptical about how you explain those in the 2nd conditional.
First of all, according to what we know and what we teach our PP the "if clause" 2nd cond. expresses a fact that is contrary to a known real present fact.
"If he graduated from university..." means "He (doesn�t graduate) is not a university graduate."
On this basis this is how I would understand the following sentence with each different modal verb.
If he graduated from University, he
may/should/could/would/must find a job in his field.
If he graduated from University, he may find a job in his field. -
means that there is a possibility to find a job in that field
but only if he is a university graduate. Unfortunately he is not so there is no chance for him to get such a job. He has to accept any other job offered to him. (Here I think we have a mixed conditional type 2 (unreal present) and type 1 (future possible result))
If he graduated from University, he should find a job in his field. - means that he is not a university graduate but if the reality was otherwise it would be preferable for him to get a job in his field not another one (kind of advice for an imaginary situation).
If he graduated from University, he could find a job in his field. - means that he is not a university graduate but if the reality was otherwise it would be quiet certain for him to get a job in his field not another field.
If he graduated from University, he must find a job in his field. - means (it is a little bit far-fetched) that he is not a university graduate but if the reality was otherwise he would be obliged to have/accept a job only in his field because he would be too specialized to be accepted in another field.
Hope I didn�t mix up everything.
Regards all.
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25 Sep 2008
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Zora
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Hi again,
Your logic behind the sentences is good from a grammatical aspect yet the "If he graduated from University" to me (when I was making up the example) was almost like in a Past Perfect type way... meaning that if he has his degree already, he should/could/might... whatever... WHEREAS you are taking it in a more literal sense...
Both ideas are acceptible - as I always say things are always a bit subjective ...
Here�s my example of how my brain was working at the time of when I was writing that...
John: Hi there Cindy, how are things with your son?
Cindy: Great. Tom just graduated from Oxford and now he�s job hunting...
J: Well, if he graduated from Oxford, he should find a job in his field without any trouble. It�s got a great reputation.
C: You would think so, but the job market is so difficult nowadays.
....
See? That�s where my brain was... anyhow... both versions are correct, it just depends on the situation that they are used in.
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25 Sep 2008
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goodnesses
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Yes Zora but even here I think it is preferable to put it as follows:
J: Well, since he graduated from Oxford, he should find a job in his field without any trouble. It�s got a great reputation.
meaning he has more chance than another to get a job in his field because he graduated from Oxford.
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25 Sep 2008
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Zora
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Yes that�s true goodnesses ... but you could use either one here since the "if" would mean "granting that he has graduated from Oxford, he should find a job with no problem"... which is basically what the "since" idea is.
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25 Sep 2008
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Vickiii
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Hi teachers,
I would have thought the following was the correct sentence to infer he had not graduated:
"If he had graduated from university ..." I personally would not use "If he graduated" to infer the meaning you were after.
I would use the phrase in the context that Zora placed it in.
Your thoughts??
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25 Sep 2008
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goodnesses
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Ok, Vickii
Zora gave her examples with "If he graduated from university..." and this means that "he" is not a university graduate that is, he has no university certificate. On this basis, I can�t agree with her explanations. If we follow her we are more tempted to think that she is speaking about some one who has already graduated from university and that she is stating what is possible, advisable or preferable to do for a person in such a situation. And here, we fall in a sort of contradiction with what is stated in the condition. Thus I think according to her explanations it is better to use type1 : "If he graduates from uni., he must/will/may/can/should/(would better)... " with a change in meaning with each modal verb of course.
But if you agree wih the way I understand these examples I absolutely agree with you that it is much better to start them with "If he had graduated..." since speaking about a person holding or not holding a uni. certificate infer tat the action of graduating happen/did not happen some time ago.
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25 Sep 2008
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Zora
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If you take the idea of a 1 conditional Goodnesses and change it to "If he graduates..." THAT definately would mean he�s not graduated whereas in my examples it could mean that he has already graduated or as you have specified before that it could also mean that he hasn�t.
As I say, you cannot be too literal sometimes with English ... since the usage in certain situations can change the meaning. Grammar rules are only guide lines to how things are formed but as we know - there are always exceptions to such rules and because of this, none of them are "strict" in their forms at times. It will always depend on the situation that it is used in.
For example, as a native, to me.. the First Conditional (if + present simple + will) sounds extremely forced and too correct at times, yet I know that the grammar structure is what it is. In fact, my examples using all types of present tenses and modals are actually a lot more common in spoken (and sometimes written) English than the other one.
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26 Sep 2008
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