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ESL forum >
Grammar and Linguistics > help, please! I īm confused...
help, please! I īm confused...
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douglas
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Baiba your prof was right, but ...
I am lucky enough to be teaching English to students that are learning to speak the language--NOT students that are trying to get certified on the language--there is a big difference. When I first started posting to this site (about seven months ago) someone mentioned this difference to me in a discussion and it made me realize how lucky I was (am  ).
If I was teaching students for a certification I would have to teach them he exact rule that would be on the exam--which is an unfortunate but necessary evil. I don īt have to worry about that with my students--I can teach them, and allow them to use, different styles of a "live" language.
Life is good  |
27 Jun 2009
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johanne23232
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Just to put in my two cents � worth..Domnitza and Anitarobi are right. This is a clear case of the subjunctive and although we rarely hear anyone speak this way, "It was important that he have a lot of books" is correct.
Follow the link Anitarobi posted and you īll see why.
If we , as English teachers, find this issue confusing, imagine how our students feel!
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27 Jun 2009
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anitarobi
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I agree, baiba...Language is a living organism which changes!
BTW, I īve had problems with this in teaching though, and I was wondering if some of you maybe had similar problems. Some of my sts asked me similar questions about various things in English, and I explained to them the traditional grammar rules and the everyday modern use, and when they went to their school teachers with that explanation, they got an F(I teach language courses in a private school, and they learn English/German in their state schools and English with me). For instance, one of them got an F in the 1st grade of elementary school for writing the word homework as one word, because his teacher claimed it should be home work, one of them got an F for using fishes (in a correct situation: There were lots of different fishes in the aquarium.), because the teacher said the word fishes doesn īt exist in English... This makes me very careful with allowing versions I would normally allow, because it īs rather difficult to tell your st: īThis is the rule here, and that īs the rule for your school! � Frankly I hope you don īt have such problems, but I would like to hear it if you do - perhaps at least sharing will help...
PS: Pls, don īt take this the wrong way - some of my sts have great state school teachers as well, they just take my course because they love English so much. I wouldn īt want anyone to think I īm blaming all teachers... |
27 Jun 2009
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class centre
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Thank you so much, dear coleagues. I īm glad my question raised a vivid feedback. I am saved now. I know what to say to my sts - this is the rule ( we are getting ready for the final state test) and that is the living English. Thanks to all of you!
Natasha
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27 Jun 2009
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Bruna Dutra
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Well... I think we do need to separate things here, like I said before, if the stater of the topic is looking for an answer because he/she is studying for an exam, we won īt be helping him/her very much by telling what we think we would hear on the streets (live English, is that it? hehehehe).
But stiiiill, despite agreeing with Domnitza and Anitarobi, I īm still not convinced that this is NECESSARELY a subjuntcive case. By following the link we can see all the explanation surrounding subjunctive mood, but nothing on the past os something like "it īs important that..." and if you check the net (even though it īs not always a reliable source), you īll se that there are many questions over this particular issue: It was important that, not It is... which is a CLEAR case of subjunctive. On English page, you īll see that there īs nothing on It was, only many It is examples --- in the past, you can see no URGENCY, therefore, no reason for subjunctive mood.
For sure, learning HOW TO SPEAK a language is much easier (and more pleasing) than learning HOW TO USE PROPERLY, EXPLAIN, TEACH, etc. hehehehehehe
Hence, I can īt say where our discussion is going to stop!! heheheh
Still, always nice to share opinions and visions.
Best wishes, guys!
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27 Jun 2009
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johanne23232
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HEre is a link to a page that does refer to the past in subjunctive.....
http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verbs-subjunctive.htm
I looked it up out of curiosity as I was starting to doubt myself....but I see my memory was ok! 
The truth is that I never teach the subjunctive to my high school students.....(fortunately)!!!
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27 Jun 2009
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Ayaniw
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I think that everyone of you will get his / her share after reading the following:
The subjunctive is sometimes used in that-clauses in a formal style, especially in American English, after words which express the idea that something is important or desirable (e.g. suggest, recommend, ask, insist, vital, essential, important, advice). The same forms are used in both present and past sentences.
-It is important that he have a lot of books.
-It was important that he have a lot of books.
-It is essential that every child have the same educational opportunities.
-It was important that John contact Bill as soon as possible.
Most subjunctive structures are formal and unusual in British English. In that clauses, British people usually prefer should + infinitive, or ordinary present and past tenses.
-It is important that he should have a lot of books. (Or he has...)
-It was important that he should have a lot of books. (Or he had...)
-It is essential that every child should have the same educational opportunities. (OR ... that every child has ... )
-It was important that John should contact Bill as soon as possible. (OR... that John contacted ... )
In conclusion, the answer to your question is:
either
-It was important that he have a lot of books.
or
-It was important that he should have a lot of books. (Or he had...)
Al.
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27 Jun 2009
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eng789
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Now I feel better, I don īt remember seeing it come up in any of our books either.
So now I have a question. Our highest or A level grade 9 pupils learn the following grammar items. Is it the same or different at your school.
Adjectives and Adverbs
Parts of Speech
Prefixes and suffixes
Present Simple / Progressive
Past Simple / Progressive
Future - will and going to
Present Perfect/ Past Perfect ( Progressive - just to know what it means)
Reported Speech - all tenses up to Past Perfect
Conditionls 1+2
Modals
Passive
I think that īs it.
How many hours do you you teach each class?
What is the level of English for a pupil finishing High School? just curious |
27 Jun 2009
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domnitza
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I have just arrived home and read all your posts. I do agree that language is a living organism which changes (and this is a fascinating fact!) but there are situations when we need to stick to the rules.
"A practical English Grammar" -- A.J. Thomson and A.V. Martinet (Oxford U.P)
It is/was +adjective ....that ....should.
It is also advisable to use FOR instead of the Subjunctive: It is important for us to have ...
There are situations when It was important/vital... is followed by a past infinitive (when speaking about past events).
If somebody wants this book (pdf format( just send me a PM with your e-mail.
Have a great evening/day/morning. I love Saturday!!!
Domnitza |
27 Jun 2009
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cookingongas
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Hello all, I like to think I know my grammar, and I say it īs the dreaded subjunctive: "it was important that he HAVE a lot of books", however, as a native (British) speaker, I īd say, in more īreal � English, "it was, is, and always has been important TO HAVE a lot of books". We don īt really use the subjunctive much these days, we find various ways around it, in this case dropping "that" and using the infinitive with "to". What do you think, other natives? All the best, Charles. |
28 Jun 2009
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