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Ask for help > Grammar Rules Vs Input?
Grammar Rules Vs Input?
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Redbull
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Grammar Rules Vs Input?
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Hi again everybody :)
I have been doing lot �s of grammar teaching of late but as some of you may know this is really not my area, as I teach IT and ESL English.
Well my questions are I was looking for some grammar worksheets about the style of input grammar "not" the rules of grammar as I feel that is down to the Thai teachers.
This type of teaching is the way I would like to go in teaching the students but don �t have any books or worksheets to start this with my classes.
Does anyone here have any such material to help me make a start on this subject?
Do you know of any good websites to download these types of worksheets as I haven �t found any good ones of yet :(
EXAMPLE OF WHAT I �M TALKING ABOUT:
Many learners have a strange habit. When somebody (e.g. a teacher) tells them the correct way to say something in English ("We say big red car.") or corrects their mistake ("You can�t say red big car"), they like to ask "why?","why?","why?". all the time and sometimes I can �t explain to the "why?s".
However, the question "why?" has no real answer. When asking the question, learners want to hear a grammar rule (e.g. �We say big red car because adjectives of size come before adjectives of color�). But the rule is not the reason why we don�t say "red big car". The rule is only a description of native speakers� who simply noticed that native speakers never say "red big car" or "red small house".
In other words, it is not true that native speakers say "big red car" because they know the rule and follow it. It�s the other way around. The size-color rule exists because native speakers say �big red car�. Native speakers are the ones who create the language. Grammar rules only follow native speakers� habits.
I believe that it doesn�t make much sense to ask the question "why is that sentence correct, and not the other one?". The only good answer to that question would be �Because native speakers say that sentence, and not the other one.�. Instead of wondering "why?", simply learn the correct way. You don�t have to care that a linguist dictionary wrote a rule for it. Follow native speakers, not grammar rules.
As always your help doesn �t go unnoticed and thanks in advance.
REDBULL GIVES YOU WINGS YOU KNOW  .
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30 Jul 2012
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Zora
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I beg to differ with you. Everything in the English language � like any language � has a rule, granted there are many contradictions to these rules in English.
The adjective rule is a grammar rule and not just something we say. All spelling and orthographic rules along with grammar rules are necessary when you are teaching. The students may not need to know them, but, if asked a teacher should not come out with "because it is said that way and that �s just the way it is".
Some students will accept that explanation, but others won �t. And often, being able to explain why something is done a certain way, makes it easier for students. You need to take into account everybody �s needs. No one student learns the same as another. One activity might be a success for one group of students, and the same activity might fail miserably with another group. You need to be adaptable. Also, I find that if you have a good understanding of your own language, you can find comparisons either lexical or grammatical in the student �s own language. You can make it easier for them to learn. Besides, many students like to do Cambridge or TOEFL exams, and they need to know grammar rules, whether we like it or not... And we cannot just come out with "oh we natives say it that way". There are rules to everything, it might be that that word comes from another language, it might be that the structure is subjunctive, or something else entirely.
Learning a language without rules, doesn �t tend to be a good idea. People often get into the habit of learning bad mistakes that way which can make communication more difficult in the long run.
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30 Jul 2012
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Redbull
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Hi Zora,
I don �t disagree with any of your statements that �s why I would let the Thai teachers do the grammar rules and let me get on with a different way of teaching the grammar like the input method of teaching it.
As you may or may not know I do like to teach the unorthodox ways and Breaking away with conventions or traditions. This is why I �m asking for this help on the website.
Thanks for your input anyway.
REDBULL GIVES YOU WINGS YOU KNOW. |
30 Jul 2012
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yanogator
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@Linda,
I think you missed Redbull �s point. Redbull isn �t advocating doing away with grammar rules. If you think about it, though, when you learned English in school, you were never taught the "rules of order of descriptive adjectives". Like me, you probably never heard of those rules until you started teaching ESL. The reason we native speakers say "big red car" is that it �s the only way that sounds right to us. Yes, there is a rule for it, but that �s not why we say it that way. Redbull just wants to teach students to speak like natives, the way the natives learn to do it.
@ Redbull,
I don �t think it �s possible to teach it that way, becuase your students aren �t surrounded by people speaking English natively. The rules are there to explain why the natives say it that way. Although your answer of "because that �s how native speakers say it" is correct (and even good), it won �t help your students at all in remembering what to say. They need a rule for that. You should be happy when they ask "why?", because it means they want to have a reason for doing what they �re doing, and especially that they want to be sure to be able to remember it.
I hope this makes sense to both of you.
Bruce |
30 Jul 2012
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Zora
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Hello Bruce,
I think what many of us forget is our kindergarten and grade 1 and 2 years. We are taught things, we just don �t realise it. I remember my teacher writing letters with a line over it or two dots. We were being taught long and short vowel sounds. Or telling us where to place adjectives.
I also remember being taught past forms and the age old correction of �bring, brang � ... lol Or the good old apostrophe rules or when and how to use conjunctions. Similes, metaphors, modals even... who doesn �t remember the infamous "Can I go to the toilet? � met with a sardonic �I don �t know, can you? � and then told we should say, "May I go to the washroom" instead.
Also, a kindergarten student would actually be corrected for writing �red, big car �... but the teacher would just say, �No, it should be big, red � - and leave it at that, mainly because it is wrong BUT it �s not a big deal.
Were you not taught that �I got a pen � is wrong? That it should be �I have a pen �? That �s grammar... we aren �t told the reason or the name of the correction but it is still grammar related.
I think that people often forget that we might learn our language because we are surrounded by it but if we didn �t got to school, have language classes where we are taught the correct way to do things, we �d all be saying very curious things.
I am afraid that the age old belief that we aren �t taught our language rules is incorrect. We aren �t taught the fancy names or all the rules that non-natives must memorize but we are guided and instructed. It �s just that many of us forget or don �t really realise what is happening.
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30 Jul 2012
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Jayho
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I haven �t got time to add anything serious today (flat chat - first week back for new semester) but I would like to briefly say that there are many opinions on this and I would like to also share this quote that I found a while ago
"Arguments over grammar and style are often as fierce as those over IBM versus Mac, and as fruitless as Coke versus Pepsi and boxers versus briefs" - Jack Lynch
Happy grammaring
Jayho
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30 Jul 2012
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papadeli
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I�m somewhere in the
middle. There are kids who need to know the rule and others who just can�t. So,
I usually create things to explain why it is said or written that way. For example, I would
ask the student to draw a�
How would he start?
He would have to create the shape of the car first. A big car.
And then he would
have to colour it. That�s why he
would have to say : �a big, red car�. Tricks to make them remember. But tricks
have to be the same.
I create tricks even for spelling or
grammar . I always offer the rule, but I know that the rule is
not as catchy as the tricks. This is my way... Greetings from Greece, papadeligames
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30 Jul 2012
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ueslteacher
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What you �re talking about is a communicative method where you give examples and the ss just follow them. And if you type in any grammar point in the search box, you �ll get the exercises which practice that or else speaking cards or board games, readings or listening activities, online exercises to practice the grammar point, and then the students remember the patterns bc they practice the same grammar point over and over in a variety of ways.As to the native speakers, there are quite a lot of native-speaking folks who don�t care much about grammar and make lots of mistakes. If your students need the language for a future job, they will depend on the "baggage" you gave them, so you have to make sure you taught them right:) Sophia
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30 Jul 2012
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yanogator
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@Linda,
I wasn �t clear enough. It was only the "adjective order" rule that I was talking about, as far as what we weren �t taught. I didn �t know that rule existed until I was teaching ESL. Certainly we learned almost all of our grammar in the form of rules (mostly beginning with "Don �t...").
I just thought of a big reason that "rules" are the best way to learn grammar. In the US, at least, there is a major problem of "hyper-correction" of grammar. People had the rule about "Don �t say �Me and John went to the store �" pounded into their heads as children, and many people now avoid the word "me" altogether. We frequently hear people say, "Come to visit John and I" or "Give it to Sally or I". Many people use "myself" when they should use "me", saying things like "You can send your reservation to Jack or myself". I see the cause of this as being the repeated correction of "Don �t say �Me and John �", resulting in a fear of the word "me", whereas an understanding of the correct usage and the reason for it would have been very helpful.
Bruce |
30 Jul 2012
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GIOVANNI
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The only thing I can add to this is that as an Esl teacher I teach grammar rules and find that it is important for students to understand the why. I have noticed that many native speakers know how to us grammar by instinct, and if you were to ask what tense is used in a sentence many have simply forgotten the tenses and rules. They can give you the correct answer but not the tense or rules. I once did a little experiment with 6 native speakers regarding the perfect tenses, only one could tell me which tense was used even though, they were using the tenses perfectly.
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30 Jul 2012
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MoodyMoody
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For us native speakers, we learn grammar rules for the standard/educated dialect in our country. Young children are still learning some of the rules, and many students � native dialects are non-standard. Those rules are taught in the schools. Rules that are the same across dialects and that are learned at a young age are not taught.
And as Giovanni says, a lot of meta-grammar (i.e., names of parts of speech and names of verb tenses) is also taught. The meta-grammar concepts make it much easier to learn other languages at older ages. There is an enormous difference between how quickly well-educated students go up levels as opposed to less-educated students. I �m glad I don �t have to teach the alphabet to students who are illiterate in their own languages, but one of my colleagues does. |
30 Jul 2012
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