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Ask for help > 2 negatives??
2 negatives??
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lynnden
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2 negatives??
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Can anybody help please? I had this sentence in a cloze exercise which I was doing with an advanced student and I really couldn �t explain to her why it was correct. She kept saying - but it �s two negatives! "The heating company enjoyed not inconsiderable success." I would be really grateful for any explanations that anybody has. |
18 Jul 2015
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cunliffe
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Two negatives make a positive ( a bit like in maths!;-)))) so this means that the heating company did indeed enjoy some considerable success. Not inconsiderable, therefore, considerable.
Edit: I have added the smiley as some people need that kind of signposting. Using two negatives e.g. � don�t know nobody� is indeed, as Almaz states, non-standard and English teachers are still pointing this out. Of course, it should be, �I don�t know anybody who went to the concert.�
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18 Jul 2015
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lynnden
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So how do you explain the following: I don �t know nobody who is going to the concert. This is incorrect because it �s 2 negatives and the correct answer is anybody. |
18 Jul 2015
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almaz
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It �s nothing to do with maths or logic and it �s never a good idea to confuse these with grammar. In the first example, the success was not inconsiderable = it wasn �t trifling or unimportant. It �s a stylistic thing � a form of litotes where an affirmative is expressed by the negative of the contrary. And in the second (" I don�t know nobody who is going to the concert"), we �re looking at something called negative concord (see here) which is a feature of many non-standard varieties of English i.e. there are two grammatical negatives, but one semantic negative. Only a deluded prig would suggest that the speaker was saying that they knew someone who was going to the concert. |
18 Jul 2015
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yanogator
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Calm down, Alex. Lynne didn �t say it had anything to do with maths - just that it was like maths in two negatives making a positive (which isn �t always true in maths, either). If I say you look like Brad Pitt, I �m not saying that you have anything to do with him; I �m just making a comparison. I replied to this post yesterday, but my computer messed up and it didn �t get posted, so here goes again. This use of the double negative is mainly used by reporters and similar writers. It is found a little in literature, but is rare in regular speaking or writing. I might be wrong, but I think it is used only with adjectives and adverbs, which is why "I don �t know nobody..." doesn �t work. A problem with "not inconsiderable" is that it can be interpreted in two ways. It can mean "considerable" or "barely more than inconsiderable". It is a structure that students should not try to use Bruce |
19 Jul 2015
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almaz
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And I just said it had nothing to do with maths or logic, Bruce. I�m saying it�s about time we got rid of that lazy, unhelpful argument (it was originally derived from a rule of Latin � a language without negative concord). Incidentally, I have no idea what your third para is about. "Reporters and similar writers"? "Used only with adjectives and adverbs"? Do you think you could unpack these a bit, or at least give us some evidence or examples. And why on earth should the latter claim lead to "I don�t know nobody..." not working (whatever that means)? OK, It�s not a prestige form, but it certainly "works" (i.e. is grammatical) in many English dialects. Of course, you�ll always get people who�ll declare that because it�s also commonly used by the socially disadvantaged and less educated, it must be �wrong�. Oh, and I am as calm as a calm thing floating calmly on a calm sea on a calm day.
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19 Jul 2015
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lynnden
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I agree that it shouldn �t be used. However, it was in a practice book for the First Cambridge Exam! So, perhaps we should be telling them. Thanks for all the answers received - at least now I can try and explain to my Spanish student. |
19 Jul 2015
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cunliffe
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I personally think that somebody got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning! It wasn �t bad to find out about litotes, though. Thank you for that, Alex.
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19 Jul 2015
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Gi2gi
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Imho, "I don �t know nobody" is definately a deviation from standard grammar, and the fact that it is used by some (categories of) people does not necessarily make it correct. I have heard ppl say "He don �t know nothing", which, by this logic, should also be declared grammatically correct. As for the first example with a negative adjective ("The heating company enjoyed not inconsiderable success.") there is nothing wrong with this;if I say that the first sentence is not incorrect, it sounds quite Ok to me... The standard rule that double negative should not be used applies to some words, like negative pronouns (nobody, nothing, nowhere, none, neither, ...) and a few adverbs (such as "never", "hardly", "scarcely"...)
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19 Jul 2015
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almaz
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Non-standard is not the same as �incorrect � or �wrong � – and since many non-standard English dialects predate Modern Standard English, you can hardly call them "deviations". You can, of course, deviate from standard spelling, although, to be fair, I �ve heard that so many people use the "definately" misspelling nowadays that it may one day enter the dictionaries as an acceptable variant of "definitely". |
19 Jul 2015
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Daisee
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This is not an uninteresting discussion :)
Moreover, I like the references to the famous songs by Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd & Tom Jones
D |
19 Jul 2015
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