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ESL forum > Ask for help > Possible or not?    

Possible or not?



zvonka.rink
Slovenia

Possible or not?
 
Dear colleagues, 
 
I have a question for you and I �m sure you �ll help me- like you always do
 
Can I accept IF as correct in this sentence:
 
There has been much debate over IF men and women make the best chefs.
 
I expected WHETHER, howerver,  some  students used if . What do you think?
 
I thank you in advance and I wish you a nice weekend. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

11 Dec 2015      





Gi2gi
Georgia

Dear Zvonka,
 
Both if /whether can start an object clause.

In fact if is more common and more "conversational". Whether tends to be more formal :)

Thus both options are Ok.
 
Giorgi 

11 Dec 2015     



almaz
United Kingdom

I know it�s probably a typo, Zvonka, but shouldn�t it be "...men or women..."? In which case, �whether� would be required after over.

11 Dec 2015     



zvonka.rink
Slovenia

Almaz,
 
You are right- it is a typo. It should be : debate over whether men or women ....
 In that case if is not correct, right?

11 Dec 2015     



douglas
United States

Probably not correct, but often heard as "common use".

11 Dec 2015     



Tapioca
United Kingdom

�IF � definitely sounds wrong to me. It �s rarely used after prepositions, and I �d use �WHETHER � if I had to here.
 
What Giorgi (edited - sorry!) said is correct in most cases, but the use of �over � here throws a spanner in the works.

In terms of style, I think the problem is definitely caused by the position of the word �over �. It �s fine if followed by a noun (e.g. There has been much debate over the risks of�.�) but still sounds a little jarring to me when followed by �whether� (and especially �if�). I �m probably just being oversensitive about it.

I�d probably rewrite it as:
 
   There has been much debate over the issue of whether men or women make the best chefs.

Alex�s eagle eye spotted the �and� typo - although it could have been:

     There has been much debate over the issue of whether men and women make the best chefs (as opposed to toddlers for example).
 
My opinion: I think grown-ups make the best chefs, whatever their gender.
 
Tap

11 Dec 2015     



almaz
United Kingdom

Yes, Tap, you�re right to point out that over is the fly in the ointment here: if-clauses are more common than whether-clauses as interrogative clauses � especially in conversation � but as you say, if is rarely used after a preposition, so whether really is the only option in that particular pattern (Michael Swan gives several examples in Practical English Usage: There was a big argument about whether we should move... vs  There was a big argument about if we should move...). Mind you, I�d say that �the issue� in your reworking would be understood anyway (men or women consists of two coordinated noun phrases, in any case) � so the sentence is fine as it is.
 
Alex 

11 Dec 2015     



zvonka.rink
Slovenia

You are all great help.
he sentence seems more complcated than I could have expected. It was taken from Longman �s Activate! and only after testing the exercises on students can you realize that they might not be the best sentences there are.
 
Thank you all.  

11 Dec 2015     



Gi2gi
Georgia

If I were you, Zvonka, I would not mark the sentence as "wrong".
 
Just a quick google search reveals it is pretty much used

 
 




And it goes on and on ...


 
Giorgi 

11 Dec 2015     



cunliffe
United Kingdom

So to your query about if it �s possible or not, Zvonka, I agree with the others that the answer is �yes. � Btw, you can debate over, on or about something. 

EDIT: Hi almaz and Tap. It�s Giorgi, not Gigi or Georgi...

11 Dec 2015     



Tapioca
United Kingdom

Interesting discussion, thank you Zvonka! I think you �re asking two questions about using "if � after "over" really:
 
1. Is it possible?
Yes
 
2. Is it acceptable?
That seems to be up for debate 
 
My touchstone is whether I �d change it if I saw it in a text intended for publication that I was proofreading and I definitely would, no question.
 
Do a lot of people use ""over if"? Sure they do. I think I remember Lynne writing about people using double negatives. It happens a lot, but whether it �s right or wrong partly depends on whether (see what I did there? ) a particular standard is important to you or to your students.
 
Is there a significant preference for "over whether"? Yes, I think there is. Try putting the terms in Google �s Ngram viewer. Something definitely happened there after the Second World War....
 
Does "over whether" sound more pleasant to a native speaker? Well, it does to me, but I can �t show you statistics for whether (see? I did it again!) the majority also enjoy the harmonious sound of those four syllables.
 
Do people who offer advice on grammar online recommend "whether" after a preposition? Again, I think they do, but you can check for yourself. Put this term below into Google and have a browse through the results.
 
    if whether after preposition
 
Finally, after considering all these lively arguments, think about whether (okay, okay, I �ll stop now) your own instinct suggests an answer. We want to be fair to our students, but we also want to offer them language that rolls off the tongue, rather than stumbles. But I would be the first to admit that my ideolect is just that!
 
Tap
 
 
 

11 Dec 2015     

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